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Are you unable to understand where common sense has departed from our Rabbi’s and leaders? Would you like us to investigate and write about other examples? Do you have any other comments about the site? Then send an e-mail to fifthchelek@yahoo.com

106 Responses “Contact Us” →

  1. Dr Yetta Krinsky

    24 July, 2011

    BS”D
    Your site only gives space, and adds strength , to machloikus. This is the oppposite of what we should be striving for.

    Chassidus brings down that Hashem only made machloikus ( the division of the upper and lower waters on the second day of Creation) so that it should be followed by the emergence of dry land on day three ,with the potential then for man to do Torah/Mitzvos so that the result is a greater refinement and healing.

    Korach, whose spiritual source was from this division was meant to be refined by Moshe Rabbeinu.
    His mistake was that he chose to strengthen machloikus.
    Chassidus also brings down that in Atik there is no left side,
    G-d willing there should not be in your site either.. and that we immediatelyy proceed to the greater healing that Hashem has in store for us.

  2. If the Rabbonim and leaders started doing their jobs, there would be no place for a web site like this. All of us at Fifth Chelek wish this would be so.


  3. Ginger Mel

    4 August, 2011

    To all you bored souls down there at Fifth Chelek,
    What in heavens name are you trying to do? Ruining someones reputation could do much more than you pigs think. People who are looking into a shidduch might drop it because they read your blog. So, please enlighten as to what you are doing. You are so sure that you are helping the world by writing and slandering innocent people on the internet. But, in fact you are simply collecting Aveira by Aveira. Get your priorities straight!

    Sincerely,
    An incredibly disgusted reader :)


  4. Peter Schwarcz

    7 August, 2011

    I have read the vast amount of exchanged emails and postings on various sites that are in some cases tantamount to bullying, defamation and downright character assassination.

    What intrigues me the most is that very few of the participants in this farce have the guts to put their name to the blog or email but hide themselves behind pseudonyms or such like.

    If you have something to say, then do so in the open – debate your point if you have one – be open to scrutiny and prosecution if you are acting contrary to halaha or laws of the country.

    what you put out there is picked up by all and available to “friends” and “foes” alike. Let’s not add to the Hillul Hashem that is already being perpetrated against the Lubaitch community.

    It’s a shame that persons in the community are small, petty minded as to want to disenfranchise you from your success so that they can augment their puny lives for personal benefit.

    Peter Schwarcz


  5. Daniel Kaffee

    7 August, 2011

    quite funny that Herzogs get their stooge Peter Schwartz to speak for them
    talk about being afraid to come out and say something openly!

  6. “All of us at Fifth Chelek wish this would be so.

    Who is “all of us?”

  7. I didn’t grow up in this community and I’m relatively new & the first thing that striked me as an outsider was the amount of shules & a sea of black hatted frumer yidden. ..how wonderful.

    and yes, there are a lot of positives to this community.

    However, scratch the surface here and there and one might also reveal a downright ugliness. As an outsider and being ignorant to the politics and inner working of this community, I’ve nevertheless sensed all along the hatred and contempt (down right sinyus hinum) that people here have for each other. Unfortunately, its not only limited to the Chabad community of melbourne…Crown heights doesn’t fare any better. No wonder so many kids are frying out – there’s no one to look up to, no one to set an example.

    This blog was apparently set up in response to a lack of leadership. Yet, it seems that rather than solving the problem, you are merely adding to it. You claim to be “journalists”? Well, this is certainly tabloid style trash talk journalism @ its very best. However, with trashy tabloid journalism, the identities of the people who write, publish and edit are also revealed and published along with the trashy material. Yet you chose to remain anonymous.

    I’m not taking sides in this gang-land dispute which involves politics, greed, money and envy, but merely pointing out that the “fifth helek” is part of the problem not the solution. You are stoking the fires of hate.

    There has to be achdus, the community needs to heal some how…yet you are not providing any answers to the problems…just creating more strife with your loshen hora and Motzi shem ra.

  8. Levi,

    “all of us” are the people who started and run the Fifth Chelek site.

    We feel very let down by the Rabbonim and leaders. Lots of people in the community feel the same way. Our response is to expose them through this site. Some of it is unpleasant. It is very sad that what we publish is true. The ugliness under the surface as you say. We think that by exposing them, it will lead to action, and make it harder for leaders to hide and cover up. Has it fixed everything? Noch nisht. Maybe its a yerida letzorech aliya?

    You want achdus and healing “some how”. Do you have any better ideas?


  9. dovid segal

    21 August, 2011

    peter: If you are worried about chillul shem Lubaitch, ask yourself or others, whether you are the person to do so.

    You say that a chillul hashem against the Lubaitch community is perpetrated now, but you forgot to mention that a chilul shem hashem was and is caused by certain individuals that thought or think that they are the Lubaitch community, or by the people that support(ed) them.

    Let’s not add to the chillul Hashem and misery of people by covering up and protecting those who Caused and are causing it even now.

    Yeh,tht’s you: “Hillul”, “halaha”.


  10. Associate of Henry

    21 August, 2011

    Peter is right. Chaim Herzog was appointed as a shliach by Rabbi Groner OBM. People who want to take away from his success are causing a Chillul Lubavitch. Smearing him on this blog is pure loshon hora.


  11. dovid segal

    22 August, 2011

    Associate of henry: even if he was appointed, than it was while rabbi groner was alive, however accordig the halacha, when the msaleiach is OBM, the shlichus is null and void.


  12. Associate of Henry

    22 August, 2011

    dovid – that is complete nonsense! After the Rebbe passed away, did all the shlichus he made become null and void?


  13. dovid segal

    22 August, 2011

    associate,

    you wrote: “After the Rebbe passed away, did all the shlichus he made become null and void?”

    do you really think that the Rebbe past away?

    I wrote “according the Halacha which is the Jewish law, and not “according to the laws of Shlichus”, that their laws are not even similar to the Jewish laws.


  14. Associate of Henry

    23 August, 2011

    Chaim Tzvi Groner was planning to speak at a JBD lunch last year. What a chutzpah to support hasogal gvul against a shliach appointed by his father OBM. Fortunately this did not go ahead. He should also be thrown out as a head shliach.

  15. do you really think that the Rebbe past away?

    Only a twit would think that he didn’t…..
    Are these “yechi” nuts now going to report “Rebbe” sightings like we have “Elvis” sightings??….

    It’s these yechi nuts who have turned chabad into the joke that it has become…..

    And for those in Melbourne get ready for times you’ll never forget(maybe as soon as this week)….Chabad is about to be front page news in all the mainstream papers…..

    Tick, Tock, Tick Tock

  16. Aussie,

    can we get a hint?


  17. MaayaneiEmet

    4 September, 2011

    Aussie, is this about the child molester that [someone] had teaching barmitzvah classes at [somewhere]?

    [Don’t make accusations like that with names! Very very dangerous!]


  18. disgusted

    5 September, 2011

    That reads like a pretty interesting bit of editting there!
    the occupation of the person in question is still left in the comment for all to see… leaving little room for doubt of the identity of the alleged child molester, but the institution and individual responsible for knowingly hiring this guy is generously spared.

    who are the editor’s protecting exactly???

  19. Aussie,

    can we get a hint?

    Well you shouldn’t need any as we all know what is coming…..
    My info comes straight from the “horses mouth” so to speak so it is accurate….

    Nope…Not bar-mitzvah lessons just yet….Nor an Oak grove extradition from Israel just yet….
    And no “get out of jail free card” just yet from USA….That one must pay the debt there first….
    And no, not related to a school principle who parted ways with that school just this past week without any explanation to the parents or public….

    No doubt this will be a “where were you moment” just like JFK, The moon landing and the planes hitting the towers…
    In years to come you’ll be able to tell your grankids where you were when the Jews of Australia finally broke free of the “Chief groner” days…..
    Like I said…Should be this week….And you read it here first….


  20. jacob derell

    5 September, 2011

    aussie
    it seems like you have a major dislike for rabbi groner can i ask you where would you have been today if the rebbe didnt send him to australia

  21. aussie
    it seems like you have a major dislike for rabbi groner can i ask you where would you have been today if the rebbe didnt send him to australia

    I have a problem with anyone who covers up crimes against children…..

    As to where I’d be?….Right here where I am now…..Silly question….


  22. jacob derell

    5 September, 2011

    with all due respect aussie, rabbi groner did what was the norm is those days
    and with regard to where you would have been am talking in relation to your yiddishkait


  23. dovid segal

    5 September, 2011

    jacob derell

    and pogroms were the norm in Bogdan Khmelnitsky’s days


  24. jacob derell

    5 September, 2011

    nobody is saying it was the right thing to do if he would be alive now he would certainly go to the police


  25. Bruce Cooke

    5 September, 2011

    aussie
    it seems like you have a major dislike for rabbi groner can i ask you where would you have been today if the rebbe didnt send him to australia

    I think this line of reasoning is flawed.Not even Moshe Rabbenu was loved & respected by everyone & so no Rabbi who can’t please everyone should feel dismayed.Rabbi Groner did not harmonise with everyone who became frum through the Yeshivah.Many became frum because of Rabbi Groner & surely some became frum in spite of Rabbi Groner.I think ALL who became frum through the Yeshiva owe a vote of thanks to the Rebbe.


  26. jacob derell

    5 September, 2011

    bruce you are 100% right we all owe a major thank you to the rebbe
    what bothers me about aussie’s post where he writes “In years to come you’ll be able to tell your grankids where you were when the Jews of Australia finally broke free of the “Chief groner” days” is that it seems like he has a disgust for rabbi groner which i think in unwarranted


  27. jacob derell

    5 September, 2011

    also bruce if we want to show thanks to the Rebbe wouldn’t it be appropriate to help his mosdos and at the very least to try not to drag them through the mud

    p.s i am not trying to say you are however there are certainly others on here who have no problem doing it


  28. dovid segal

    5 September, 2011

    “if he would be alive now he would certainly go to the police”

    how do you know that?

    there are many who still don’t go to the police in our time.


  29. jacob derell

    5 September, 2011

    dovid while its impossible for us to know for certain what rabbi groner would do its quite reasonable to say that he would follow what most other rabbonim do and go to the police

  30. with all due respect aussie, rabbi groner did what was the norm is those days
    and with regard to where you would have been am talking in relation to your yiddishkait.

    Same place I am now…..
    Sorry if you don’t like the answer but it’s the truth…..And you can ask 10 more times but the answer won’t change….
    I was born a Jew….Being jewish happened long time b4 I met Groner or even knew of the Rebbe…..

  31. nobody is saying it was the right thing to do if he would be alive now he would certainly go to the police

    dovid while its impossible for us to know for certain what rabbi groner would do its quite reasonable to say that he would follow what most other rabbonim do and go to the police

    Jacob please….Enough already…..If there no end to the lengths you will go to protect Groner knowing full well that he allowed so many children to be abused under his watch??…

    You know full well that Groner would NEVER go to the police….Even though mandetory reporting been in for 2 decades…..He proved that on more then one occasion(no I won’t mention names till after they are arrested)…..
    If Groner were alive today he’d be facing jail time for his failure to report…..
    YES failing to comply with mandetory reporting does carry jail time….

    Groner did a lot of good….No one questions that….
    But at the same time Groner let down every child and every parent of every child that went to the school…..
    As much as you love Groner and wish to protect his name these are the facts….Facts that you can not deny….

  32. dovid while its impossible for us to know for certain what rabbi groner would do its quite reasonable to say that he would follow what most other rabbonim do and go to the police

    This entire statement from you is pure BS……Most rabbonim don’t go to the police…..
    Yeshivah in Melbourne Don’t….
    Addas don’t….
    Sydney Yeshivah certainly don’t…..
    The “bar-mitzvah” lessons shuels Rav don’t…..

    I challenge you to name one Rav that done the right thing and went to the police…..
    Some how I doubt you can…..


  33. Bruce Cooke

    6 September, 2011

  34. NOW IT’S OFFICIAL

    LOL…It was official 2 days ago when I told you it would happen this week…..

    Some more info….
    Cyprys was arrested early this morning and taken to Moorabin(Nepean Hwy & South Rd) for questioning….He was then charged and around midday he arrived at Melb Magestrates court for a bail hearing…..
    Police sought to have him remanded in custody….
    No word yet on a decision….

  35. Yeah Aussie aka Waks, smiling from ear to ear aren’t you? Finally get some compo right? Perhaps you could reimburse the yeshiva for all the freeloading years the rest of us payers were forking out for your out-of-wak clan and damn still forking out. Hell will freeze over first before you even contemplate forking over a dime, right? Yeah, we know, you’ll scream blue murder you’re not getting a crumb, right? By the way, any truth in the rumor doing the rounds you’ve done time in the klink? Care to comment?

  36. Yeah Aussie aka Waks,

    LOL…No I am not Waks….

  37. Aussie AKA Waks

    LOL yourself.Only you could be so happy that a fellow Jew, even a fellow human being, is going down the drain, even deservedly. It’s a tragedy for everyone and you are LOLing away? As Mordy said, start repaying your debt to society, you freeloader! Perhaps that will wipe the moronic LOL of your face.
    I’m with you Mordy, 100%!

  38. LOL yourself.Only you could be so happy that a fellow Jew, even a fellow human being, is going down the drain, even deservedly. It’s a tragedy for everyone and you are LOLing away? As Mordy said, start repaying your debt to society, you freeloader! Perhaps that will wipe the moronic LOL of your face.

    Of course I am happy….Any decent person would be….You and Mordy are either pedo’s or you condone pedophilia……Shame on you both…..

    All the rest of your post is BS since I’m not Waks….

  39. Hey AussieWaks
    Reckon Waks is a freeloader? LOL about that! Reckon he should reimburse us payers for the free ride he/you been getting for years? So maybe Manny could hand him/you a few shekels if and when he gets a compo payout? He’s a civic minded community guy is he not? Comes across as a caring person the way I see it,so maybe he’d help you out? Man let’s face it, it’s long overdue. Centrelink is not going to come to the party on this one. Your LOL opinion?

  40. Your LOL opinion?

    You shouldn’t post when you’ve been drinking….You’re making a fool of yourself….LOL…

  41. Mordy and Boruch, haven’t you been reading recent posts on ‘And then there were two’ before you attack a new writer? Aussie is not Waks and lives in Tasmania as he said before.

    I can understand your reaction guys but how do you think other large families who may be in the same situation would feel reading your contempt for them? This is not the Yeshivah or Chabad attitude.


  42. Bruce Cooke

    6 September, 2011

    As far as accusing ANYONE of freeloading on the Yeshivah goes please 1st consider this.
    The Yeshivah does not publish financials.We have no way of knowing the unit cost to educate each student or even an average unit cost per student.We have no way of knowing what is the government funding per student that the Yeshivah receives.
    What we do know is that the Yeshivah has risen like a Phoenix from the ashes of the early 1990’s when it had a near (financial)death experience.Some enterprising people who have used the FOI & other sources claim that the Yeshivah had over $10,000,000 in liquid cash in recent months due to current & back funding from the government.Yes the Yeshivah has a sophisticated team of fundraisers & perhaps this explains the healthy financial state of affairs. But we will never know under the current system where accountability & transparency is not on the radar.Mizrachi on the other hand has full disclosure & is in debt.Perhaps there is something to be said for secrecy.Anyhow getting back to the point of freeloading:
    Could it be that the Yeshivah is not out of pocket per student due to government funding? I don’t know.Does anyone know.When you look at the large families of the management it makes you wonder.How do they afford the high school fees?Are they getting a free ride? If so why so?This is a Pandoras box that is going to embarass many who start accusations of freeloading.

  43. Mordy and Boruch, haven’t you been reading recent posts on ‘And then there were two’ before you attack a new writer? Aussie is not Waks and lives in Tasmania as he said before.

    Thank you Yentl….Though I doubt those 2 will ever believe anything other then what they want to believe….

    Yes the Yeshivah has a sophisticated team of fundraisers & perhaps this explains the healthy financial state of affairs.

    Times must have changed…..Back when I was a student there Reb Nocham Gurevitch used to come round on a Sunday morning for a lechaim…..Half a bottle later with my father half tanked he’d talked my father into paying not only my school fees but that of a new Russian immagrant who couldn’t afford to pay….

  44. Re “liquid cash” and “Healthy financial state”
    Anyone involved in Jewish school governance in the last several years will tell you that grants (sometimes totally millions for large schools) targetted for the Building the Education Revolution projects and Secure Schools projects have to be kept in a separate account and are not cash of the school, even if they appear in hearsay estimates. The day to day expenses of most Jewish schools are inevitably very tight.
    Aussie, thanks to your father’s mitzvah, someone out there had a Jewish education. I learned from the example set by Rabbi Yosef Gutnick and I too have funded scholarships for Jewish students. I wouldn’t dream of making the recipients feel guilty. Every Jew is responsible one for the other, zeh l’zeh,

  45. Every Jew is responsible one for the other, zeh l’zeh,you say Yentl?
    So responsible in fact that there is glee all over someones face, punctuated by LOL’s when another Jew, is going to go down the gurgler?

  46. Read what he wrote. The LOL was about the dates because he had heard two days before, and then about your confusion.
    No-one should celebrate a well-known Yid being arrested regarding such alleged behaviour.
    I am sure there is a deep sense of shame in the community right now.
    And the anger you expressed is normal grief response too.

  47. Sure Yentl. This guy lives in Tassie, posts on two topics currently on Fifth Chelek, with obvious good current inside knowledge regarding both topics and through “bush telegraph” has access to intimate details days before everyone else despite having relocated to Tassie some time back? And then has the audacity to gleefully carry on while this tragedy is occurring? What next, hand him sweets whilst he dances on the rooftop of his Tassie house? Everyone understands the requirement for closure for victims and the prosecution of perpetrators but this LOL and glee defies what a Jew is all about. Let’s hope for Waks/Aussie sake Hashem responds with more compassion than this so called Tassie is able to show others in this month of Elul and beyond.

  48. Sure Yentl. This guy lives in Tassie, posts on two topics currently on Fifth Chelek, with obvious good current inside knowledge regarding both topics and through “bush telegraph” has access to intimate details days before everyone else despite having relocated to Tassie some time back?

    Yes Mordy I am new to posting on this blog……But that’s because I only became aware of this blog in the last few days when someone posted a link to here at FM…..
    I use same name at FM where I have posted for ages…..

    I was the first to name Cyprys on the blog……
    The copy of the article in the Australian newspaper which you all saw in Melbourne weeks ago did not name Cyprys…..But the edition printed in Tassi did…..And I provided proof to the FM blog of this via a scan….
    Yes, the Mercury(Hobarts paper), the Herald-Sun and the Australian are all printed here…(They are owned by same company)….

    My “obvious good current inside knowledge” did not come via the “bush telegraph”…..
    FYI the detective who arrested Cyprys spent 2 days here in Tassi last week taking statements…..

    And then has the audacity to gleefully carry on while this tragedy is occurring? What next, hand him sweets whilst he dances on the rooftop of his Tassie house? Everyone understands the requirement for closure for victims and the prosecution of perpetrators but this LOL and glee defies what a Jew is all about. Let’s hope for Waks/Aussie sake Hashem responds with more compassion than this so called Tassie is able to show others in this month of Elul and beyond.

    What tragedy Mordy??….Your mate finally getting what many of us have waited 20years to see happen??….
    The tragedy is the lack of protection given to our children all these years…

    I’ll be in Melbourne in 2 weeks….I’d love to meet with you…..
    I bet you don’t have the guts to say to my face what you post here….


  49. Oliver Shalom

    7 September, 2011

    Bruce, finally there are some YBR financials in the public arena – look at the Federal Government’s MySchool website http://www.myschool.edu.au . For those of us paying full fees, it looks like we subsidise 10 other children for every one of our own children. And the government funding received per child is much greater than most other schools.

    I just hope that the chidren I subsidise are genuine cases, rather than coming from families with undeclared/schvartz incomes, or with parents that aren’t inclined to go out and get a job.

    What the website financials do not show is the money trail, i.e. where all the fees and funding is spread. My gut feeling is that there are other “projects” being funded, possibly including Chabad Youth. One thing is for sure: Nepotism is alive and well within YBR and it’s affiliates, and all these salaried family members can’t be doing it for love.

  50. Police prosecutor yesterday in court regarding Yeshivah College’s cooperation with police: “lies that have been told to police and information that has been twisted and covered up”.

    Letter sent to the Yeshivah community yesterday by Rabbi Y. Smukler, Yeshivah College Principal: “the College continues to cooperate fully with the Police”.


  51. Joe in Australia

    7 September, 2011

    Oliver: thanks for the tip. By clicking on the “details” button I see that “Fees, charges and parent contributions” add up to about $3,519 per student, and that average expenditure per student (most of which comes from the government) is around $14,034.

    Let’s suppose that you’re actually paying $35,000 in fees and donations. You might think that you would have a voice just because you’re paying ten times the parental average,(*) but in fact you’re not paying for ten students – you’re paying for two and a half, one of which is your own child. The rest comes from the government. So losing your contribution would be serious, but it’s not like you’re paying for half the class.

    (*) I don’t know whether this would actually be a good thing – would it be right to deny a voice to poorer parents?


  52. Oliver Shalom

    7 September, 2011

    Joe: I don’t have a say at all, like most other parents whom aren’t major donors or “connected”. Remember, YBR doesn’t have a governing board made up of parents, or a parental committee to oversee anything other than the uniform, and what a debacle that was.

    I’d love all parents to have a voice at YBR, especially when it comes to management and finances of the school.

    I’m still paying 5 to 6 times more than the average parent when I pay the fees for just 1 of my children, and something doesn’t smell right.


  53. dovid segal

    7 September, 2011

    yentl,

    you wrote: “Every Jew is responsible one for the other”, as if it is it a Halocho.

    Did you know that the expression כל ישראל ערבין זה לזה (zeh l’zeh, or ze b’ze) – Every Jew is responsible one for the other, started as a “Midrasho” explanation to why Jews that didn’t sin are punished, and the answer was, that every Jew is as a guarantor to another Jew (see Rashi Vayikra 26, 37), and Its meaning was changed by fund raisers and Darshonim of all kind, to say that every Jew is responsible for the welfare (physical or spiritual) of another Jew, and now everyone knows it as a Pshuto.

  54. The latest update on the Cyprys case…..

    1)Cyprys provided surety of 50K and his passport was surrendered….
    He was released at 9AM this morning(wednesday)….
    The identity of who posted the surety is unknown…..

    2)His lawyer Alex Lewenberg withdrew from the case today and will no longer represent him…

  55. Thanks Dovid, I learn a lot from you. As you know, Torah is eternal, and I sense my neshama incorporated this mussar in another lifetime and it sprang to mind as apt for this situation: people arrested and dozens of innocents hurting. This responsibility falls on all our heads.

  56. Just to add….

    Rumors that Yossel posted the 50K are just that, rumors…..
    Under the privacy act info on who posts bail or surety is not made public…..


  57. Joe in Australia

    7 September, 2011

    Oliver: We don’t actually know who would be an “average” parent. We can make some guesses, though.

    Consider a class with 24 kids. The school expects to get $85,000 in fees from that class – which is the equivalent of (just over) four full fees! In reality some classes will have more, some fewer, and the fees will be made up by partial payments from some parents and so forth. But it’s a surprising result.

    Here’s another point – at present those four parents are effectively paying around $17,500 to support the education of other kids. This is a very good thing – but it’s not tax deductible because it’s called “fees”. If those parents could pay $3,519 in fees and $17,500 as a donation then they’d save around $7,000 in tax. Each.

    YBR really needs to find a better way to handle this. My estimate is that the YBR parents collectively are paying around $400,000 in excess tax simply because of the way YBR charges fees. Just think what could be done with even half that money if it were directed towards YBR instead of the ATO.

  58. Aussie is correct regarding privacy laws. But those who were in the vicinity are aware of who organised the bail.
    Someone by the name of Mr Aron

  59. der ruv,

    [Edited] The issue of the comments made by the police prosecutor in court has been addressed. The school has been co-operating fully with the police. There have been other “communal figures” who have been working to cover up the crimes committed by people within our community.

  60. Bruce, Joe, Oliver and others,

    YBR only collects around 40% of full school fees because they have so many students who are on fee relief. For other Jewish schools like Scopus and Yavneh, it’s more like 70-80%. If they were more transparent about this sort of thing, then maybe people wouldn’t rubbish them. Instead, it’s one big secret and they expect everyone to just trust them that they are running the school properly.

  61. The only reason for not being transparent today is that there is something to hide- plain an simple.

  62. [edited …] The school has been co-operating fully with the police. There have been other “communal figures” who have been working to cover up the crimes committed by people within our community.

    From where do you get this information???.

  63. From inside sources, of course. Where do you get your information?

  64. From inside sources, of course. Where do you get your information?

    I’m calling you out on this…..I challenge you to make a stat dec as to your claims….
    If not then you should retract and make a full apology to readers..

    As I see it all you are doing here is a lame attempt to deflect from the cover up which the police and the prosecutor spoke of in open court….
    Shame on you….

    It’s a fact that the police were lied to and their investigation was hindered…..
    NOTHING has been retracted….

  65. Aussie, You are on the money. Thankfully, the “inside” sources that FC refers to are “inside” someone’s posterior, Yeshivah-machers’ wishful thinking. It’s a shame, FC has been generally reasonable on this issue in the past. I hope this was just an unfortunate mistake.

  66. Aussie, You are on the money. Thankfully, the “inside” sources that FC refers to are “inside” someone’s posterior, Yeshivah-machers’ wishful thinking. It’s a shame, FC has been generally reasonable on this issue in the past. I hope this was just an unfortunate mistake.

    There was no mistake…..This was a deliberate move by FC to mislead readers into thinking that Yeshivah done no wrong……

    And yes mate…I’m always on the money……I think I’ve shown enough proof that my info is 100%…..

  67. Remember that Yeshivah Centre communal leaders and Yeshivah College school leaders (especially currently) are different leaders. The comments may have been about one and not the other and would be misconstrued.

  68. Aussie,

    A stat dec? Du bist in ganz meshugeh? This is a blog where the people who run the site are anonymous, and most of the commenters are anonymous.

    Call Nechama Bendet or Rabbi Smukler and ask them about it. If you wait, it will probably come out anyway just like your information has. You probably won’t believe what they told you anyway. You didn’t have any big scoop anyway – plenty of people knew Cyprys was about to be charged, and the newspapers already named him a few weeks ago.

    I never suggested that the Yeshivah has done nothing wrong. Definitely people covered things up a few years ago when he molested kids. This is a question of whether the Yeshivah helped the police or not with the current investigation into what Cyprus did. Our information is that they did work with them, and that the police prosecutor overdid it [removed]. What someone says at a bail hearing (where they are trying to get the judge to not give bail) is very different to what they say as testimony (sworn) in the actual case. [edited]. We will all have to wait and see.

  69. “Doesn’t help”? “Doesn’t help” Cyprys? Were you wanting to help Cyprys get out of this mess? That’s very generous of you!
    Did you not want Vorscheimer to warn the court of what was possible?
    Should that not have been mentioned?

    It is starting to sound like the moderators of this blog are members of the Yeshiva management.

    I smell agenda.

  70. Eman, They are certainly Yeshivah stooges. How do I know? Because they are lying.


  71. Bruce Cooke

    8 September, 2011

    Dear Rabbi Smukler,

    I refer to your email, whereby you maintain that Yeshivah has “FULLY” cooperated with Victoria Police.

    The term “FULLY” is an absolute one, there is no room for discretion.

    The Yeshivah has NOT fully cooperated with the Victoria Police and there is much evidence to support what I say and people who are prepared to sign a statutory declaration to that effect.

    Your statement to the contrary is incorrect and this reality needs to be acknowledged. Your position leads me to have serious concerns regarding the welfare of students in your care.

    In or around May/June 2011, Victoria Police made a request from the Yeshivah College for the details of former students at the Yeshivah College between 1989 and 1993.

    As you are aware, the list provided by Yeshivah College to Victoria Police, was INCOMPLETE, with many former students and their contact details omitted.

    This omission by the Yeshivah Centre occurred despite the fact that many of those persons whose details the Yeshivah Centre chose NOT to furnish to Victoria Police; being current parents; congregants and/or donors of the Yeshivah; and their contact details being held on the Yeshivah database.

    As a consequence many former students did not receive the letter from Victoria Police.

    In the circumstances you will agree, that the Yeshivah College did NOT fully cooperate with Victoria Police.

    Bruce J. Cooke

  72. “Doesn’t help”? “Doesn’t help” Cyprys? Were you wanting to help Cyprys get out of this mess? That’s very generous of you!
    Did you not want Vorscheimer to warn the court of what was possible?
    Should that not have been mentioned?

    The police already knew all about this…….And to yell out in court is wrong….Should not have been done….

    It is starting to sound like the moderators of this blog are members of the Yeshiva management.

    I smell agenda.

    No I doubt part of Yeshivah management but certainly yeshivah friendly and prepared to protect Yeshivah name at any cost….No matter what BS they need to post to reach their objective…

    “Agenda”is an understatement…..And no they not as anonymous as they may think….

  73. Remember that Yeshivah Centre communal leaders and Yeshivah College school leaders (especially currently) are different leaders. The comments may have been about one and not the other and would be misconstrued.

    Last I checked the website, not all the school leaders are different and are the same that were there 25years ago….

  74. I’m referring to the Principal for example, who has only been recently appointed.

  75. To solve the Police [edited] question, I propose the following. Since the statement was made very much in public, […], or it’s worthless. So I am happy to give FC let’s say a week? If the police have not […] by then, it means it was all BS from the beginning, another DW-dreamt-about-being-told-to-make-a vaad-ruchni experience, & FC will publicly apologize to all readers.

  76. der ruv – that sounds like a good idea. Obviously the story came from a Yeshivah insider, and the centre will want to clear themselves about this or risk being found an accomplice. Fifth Chelek is not promising any “public apology”, and won’t he held to any strict deadlines. But if we get something really wrong, we will correct it.


  77. Bruce Cooke

    8 September, 2011

    I would like to add to the email I posted above(to R Smukler) that the Yeshivah management were advised by myself & others many times about the deficient data given to the Police.The response from the management was “no response”.There was no acknowledgement of the deficiency & certainly no action taken.

  78. If Vorscheimer did call out in court and made any reference to Israel directly or indirectly, this would have played right into the hands of Jew haters in that it implies Israel, automatically gives safe haven to any scoundrel as long as they are Jewish. Of course that assertion is false but it’s music to non-Jews who have it in for Israel. If it’s true,…..shame on him! Why was he in court to begin with? Making sure the police do their job and don’t mess up like they did when he was biffed a few years back?


  79. dovid segal

    8 September, 2011

    Yentl, thanks.

    My comment was on what you wrote “Every Jew is responsible one for the other”, as if it is it a Halocho, and my comment was that the meaning of כל ישראל ערבין זה לזה was changed by… to a command to cough up monies or public support for their needs, however, we find in early sources that for Jews to support Jews not as a “Halacic duty”, but as an “ethical duty”.

    Rabbi Y. Iben Shueib (Spain1280-1340, see http://www.daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=3317) writes in his Derashot (פרשת אמור ד”ה מעתה נוכל):

    “… וכשהאיברים מכוונים לעזור אלו לאלו אז טוב לגוף ושלוה ובריאות. כן באומה כשמכוונים לעזור אלו לאלו כל אחד על מקומו יבא בשלום. כי כמו שהאיברים צריכין זה לזה ומשתלשלין זה מזה הקטון בגדול והגדול בקטן, כן האומה הזאת אחדים ומשתלשלין וצריכין לעזור הגדול לקטן והקטן נשמע לגדול והגדולים סובלין לקטנים, כמו שכתוב (תהילים פרק קמד פסוק יד) “אלופינו מסובלים אין פרץ ואין יוצאת ואין צוחה ברחובותינו”. ועל זה אמרו כל ישראל ערבים זה לזה, וסמכו אותו לפסוק וכשלו איש באחיו. וכתיב (ישעיה פרק מא פסוק י) איש את רעהו יעזורו. ואפילו שיפסיד משלו, כמו שכתוב בספר אלכוזר (ספר הכוזרי מאמר ג אות יט, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzari):

    “ובעוד שיתעלם היחיד מחלק הכל והוא שיש בו תקנת צבורו, אשר הוא חלק ממנו וחשב כי יותירנו לעצמו, הוא חוטא על הכל וחוטא לנפשו יותר, כי היחיד בכלל הצבור כאבר האחד בכלל הגוף. אלו היה מקפיד הזרוע על דמו כשהוצרך אל ההקזה, היה נפסד הגוף כולו ונפסד הזרוע בהפסדו”), כי אדם מקיז זרוע להועיל לגופו, ואם לא יקיז לפעמים יאבד הגוף. ואמרו ז”ל “למה נמשלו ישראל לשה (ראה ויקרא רבה (וילנא) פרשה ד ד”ה ו, ילקוט שמעוני יתרו רמז רעו, ירמיהו רמז שלד, איוב רמז תתקכ), מה שכל זמן שאחד מאיבריו חולה כי כך הוא טבעו ששוכב ארצה ואינו יכול לקום, כך ישראל (ראה שיר השירים רבה (וילנא) פרשה ו ד”ה א [יא]) אם אחד חוטא כל ישראל נכשלין על ידו”, וכן הוא אומר (קהלת פרק ט פסוק יח), “וחוטא אחד יאבד טובה הרבה”. משל לבני אדם שהיו באים בספינה קם אחד והיה קודח במקדח תחתיו, אמרו לו מה אתה עושה? אמר להם ומאי איכפת לכם, והלא במקומי אני עושה, אמרו לו סוף שתציף עלינו המים, ונאבד כלנו ותטבע הספינה, וכן אלו הכתות צריכות כל אחד ואחד לעזור לכל כת וכת, …”.

    you wrote:

    “Remember that Yeshivah Centre communal leaders and Yeshivah College school leaders (especially currently) are different leaders”.

    “I’m referring to the Principal for example, who has only been recently appointed”.

    The principal is only one, but leaders are at least two, who for example is the second?

    “and Yeshivah Centre communal leaders”, who is or are the example(s)? rabbi telsner?


  80. dovid segal

    8 September, 2011

    boruch

    “…implies Israel, automatically gives safe haven to any scoundrel as long as they are Jewish. Of course that assertion is false”.

    Is it false?

    See here the law of return:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Immigration/Text_of_Law_of_Return.html

    Right of aliyah** 1. Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh.**

    However in the Law of Return (Amendment 5714-1954) , we find:

    (2) the following paragraph shall be inserted after paragraph (2):
    “(3) is a person with a criminal past, likely to endanger public welfare”.
    Is a person that was charged, but did not appear in court or found guilty considered “a person with a criminal past”?

    about Amendment 3 see here:

    http://www.fridmanwork.com/lawyers4655.html

    4. לא אחת התחבט בית משפט זה בשאלה, מהו אותו “עבר פלילי” הנזכר בחריג שבסעיף 2(ב) לחוק השבות. נפסק, שאין הכרח כי אדם יורשע בפלילים על מנת שייקבע כי הוא בעל עבר פלילי. אדם אשר הודה בביצוע עבירה עשוי אף הוא להיחשב כבעל עבר פלילי לצורך הסעיף האמור. יתרה מכך, שר הפנים רשאי להסתפק בראיות מינהליות ברורות ומשכנעות לצורך קביעה כי פלוני הינו בעל עבר פלילי (בג”ץ 1227/98 מלבסקי נ’ שר הפנים, פ”ד נב(4) 690 (להלן – פרשת מלבסקי), 716-713; עוד ראו בג”ץ 442/71 לנסקי נ’ שר הפנים, פ”ד כו(2) 337 ובג”ץ 94/62 גולד נ’ שר הפנים, פ”ד טז 1846). המקרה שלפנינו שונה ממקרים קודמים בהם נדונה השאלה מהו עבר פלילי. באותם מקרים היה מדובר באנשים שהגיעו ארצה ונטען לגביהם כי היו בעלי עבר פלילי שמקורו בפעילותם מחוץ לישראל, טרם בואם ארצה. לעומת זאת, החלטת השר בעניינו של העותר מבוססת על הפעילות העבריינית בישראל. אין חולקין על כך שבשנים בהן העותר נמצא בארץ הוא הספיק לבצע עבירות רבות ומגוונות. אף לא ניתן לחלוק ברצינות על כך שמדובר באדם העלול לסכן את שלום הציבור. אילו היה מדובר בקטין שביצע עבירה אחת בלבד, ול? עבירת הריגה, ייתכן שניתן היה לטעון כי שלום הציבור איננו עוד בסכנה, לאור העובדה שחלפו שמונה שנים מאז ביצועה של אותה עבירה. דא עקא, במקרה של העותר אין מדובר במעידה חד-פעמית או במשובת נעורים, אלא במבַצע סדרתי של עבירות פליליות חמורות, במשך תקופת שמונה השנים בהן הוא נמצא בארץ. על כן, היה לשר הפנים יסוד איתן לקביעתו, כי עברו הפלילי של העותר, המבוסס על העבירות שחטא בהן בארץ, מצביע על כך שנשקפת ממנו סכנה לשלום הציבור. דומה, שאף העותר אינו טוען כי בחינה של המצב דהיום תוביל למסקנה כי אינו בעל עבר פלילי העלול לסכן את שלום הציבור, כאמור בסעיף 2(ב)(3) לחוק השבות. הדגש בטיעונו הוא שאף אם ביצע עבירות לאחר כניסתו לישראל, יש להתעלם מהן ולבחון את הנתונים כפי שהיו קיימים במועד כניסתו ארצה. לטענתו, באותה עת זכאי היה לקבל תעודת עולה ולפיכך יש לתיתה לו אף כיום.

  81. der ruv – that sounds like a good idea. Obviously the story came from a Yeshivah insider, and the centre will want to clear themselves about this or risk being found an accomplice. Fifth Chelek is not promising any “public apology”, and won’t he held to any strict deadlines. But if we get something really wrong, we will correct it.

    You Sir are the accomplice…..
    A bit of “back-pedal” with a lot of “distancing oneself” thrown in once busted(called out)…..

    Of course you not promising a public apology…..Why would you ever do the right thing??…

    For those wondering if the lies, hinderence, cover-ups and sweeping under the carpet will continue within Yeshivah you now have the answer…..It’s YES…..

  82. Dovid, you are kept very busy looking up definitions and clarifications.
    Reading past statements, NB was probably not in that role in the late 1980’s to around 93 as she could not state when exactly Kramer left. Was it before her time?

  83. Dovid, Does Australia have an extradition treaty with Israel though.

  84. Yentl, the answer is…yes

    Australian Treaty Series 1976 No 2
    DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS
    CANBERRA
    Treaty between Australia and the State of Israel concerning Extradition
    (Jerusalem, 4 December 1975)
    Entry into force: 3 January 1976
    AUSTRALIAN TREATY SERIES
    1976 No. 2
    Australian Government Publishing Service
    Canberra

    (c) Commonwealth of Australia 1995
    http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/other/dfat/treaties/1976/2.html

  85. Thanks Boruch,
    so alleged crims can run, but they can’t hide.


  86. dovid segal

    9 September, 2011

    boruch is right, hoever there is alot of wheeling and dealing until a person is extradited:

    http://www.justice.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/E0DBC57B-192B-4471-9AD8-833B4A2BA3E3/0/46000.pdf

  87. After lots of discussion with people who supplied the information about what happened in court at the bail hearing, we decided to edit our comment of yesterday and water them down. Because of the discussion afterwards, we also needed to edit some of the comments of others who responded. Fifth Chelek jumped the gun and used information that caused a stir among a lot of the stakeholders. That was regrettable.

    There has also been some feedback about some other things we reported yesterday (not on the site). We are looking into those things, and if they turn out to be incorrect or overstated, then we will edit them as well.


  88. dovid segal

    9 September, 2011

    Yentl

    Here is something that I don’t need to research.

    I was told by my “insider” that the vic. police donated to chabad youth the honey for this year Rosh Hashana mivtzoim, and that the next AJN will publish a picture of the police chaplain inspecting the bees that will produced the police honey if they had a Bris.

  89. Dovid, the honey story is probably shtick for Shmooze on page 2. it is a shticky matter!

    The AJN has made an effort to improve and is learning what is acceptable, thankyou Zeddy Lawrence, editor. Coverage in this week’s issue is less sensationalist and more factual and court matters are on page 3 (probably because the 10 year anniversary of 9/11 makes front-page).
    NOTE the editorial:

    “Now that the matter is before the courts, where it should be, there are strict rules on what the AJN – and any other publication or blog – can say.
    Speculation, rumours and commentary are out…”

    “Going to the police and being asked to revisit a very difficult time would be one of the biggest challenges these people ever face and they are to be commended”.

    Our thoughts are with everyone affected by this….and may you have Shabbat Shalom.

  90. After lots of discussion with people who supplied the information about what happened in court at the bail hearing, we decided to edit our comment of yesterday and water them down. Because of the discussion afterwards, we also needed to edit some of the comments of others who responded. Fifth Chelek jumped the gun and used information that caused a stir among a lot of the stakeholders. That was regrettable.

    There has also been some feedback about some other things we reported yesterday (not on the site). We are looking into those things, and if they turn out to be incorrect or overstated, then we will edit them as well.

    LOL….Some interesting editing there……Removed enough yet left enough to COVER UP what you did….
    But no matter as enough people read it and now know full well what you did and what you’re about….

    You are not even enough of a mench to apologise for your lies or for refering to me as ‘meshugah”…

    Your credibility is shot and you have been BUSTED!!!

  91. The other option would be to leave what we wrote exactly as is, and then write a retraction. We didn’t want to leave it as is because it wasn’t 100% correct and ruffled a lot of feathers.

    When we referred to you as “meshugah”, it was for suggesting a stat dec from an anonymous blog. Maybe read the post and develop a thicker skin.

  92. The other option would be to leave what we wrote exactly as is, and then write a retraction. We didn’t want to leave it as is because it wasn’t 100% correct and ruffled a lot of feathers.

    It wasn’t even 10% correct…..It was lies….
    You should have left it and others comments intact. You should have retracted and made apology…But instead you chose to cover up….

    When we referred to you as “meshugah”, it was for suggesting a stat dec from an anonymous blog. Maybe read the post and develop a thicker skin.

    I can be just as insulting as you….But I chose to be the bigger man….
    I chose to expose you for what you are….
    I’ve dealt with much worse then you online….My skin is plenty thick…..))

  93. Interesting article, asks the correct questions:
    http://www.brucellama.com/?p=2252

    Also “it wasn’t 100% correct”? It was a damn lie, from start to finish.
    FC used to be reasonable, now you’ve hopped into bed with liars.


  94. Joe in Australia

    9 September, 2011

    You know, not everyone who gets things wrong is a liar. Not everybody who makes a mistake is or deserves to be “BUSTED!!!” None of us have complete information; none of us get things right all the time. You guys sound hysterical when you say things like that, and when you make weird demands like telling people they have to make statutory declarations, and when you accuse people of “hopping into bed with liars”. You wouldn’t want people to judge you as harshly as you’re judging everyone else, so please, tone it down.

  95. Each blog has it’s own social norms. Aussie, and anyone who has recently come from read or writing on Failed Messiah or one of the blogs that has an incredibly aggressive tone, I’m sure you will notice how different this blog is, and will tone it down over time. We are here to constructively criticise, discuss and make the world and Yeshivah Centre a better place. I think the people here care about hearing each other’s point of view (even if they make a mistake in expressing it).

  96. Aussie & der ruv,

    You claim it was “lies” but you bring no proof. We have no “proof” either. Time will tell. We won’t be asking you to eat humble pie if what we said is proved to be mostly correct.
    Thanks to Joe for showing some common sense, which is what this web site is really all about

  97. You claim it was “lies” but you bring no proof. We have no “proof” either. Time will tell. We won’t be asking you to eat humble pie if what we said is proved to be mostly correct.

    Proof??…Du bist in ganz meshugeh?….))
    YOU provided the proof for us when you edited our your lies(yes more then one) after I called you out….


  98. Bruce Cooke

    11 September, 2011

    I will rely on Dovid Segal to give the reference that states words to the effect that:

    “People do not tell lies about what will inevitably be revealed to be a lie”

    CLEARLY THAT GEMARA APPLIED TO SOME BYGONE ERA BECAUSE IT CERTAINLY DOESN”T APPLY TODAY


  99. dovid segal

    11 September, 2011

    טעמא דעד אחד מהימן – משום דמילתא דעבידא לאיגלויי הוא לא משקר

    The reason that a single witness is (generally) believed is that since is a matter that is likely to be exposed, he will not lie. (Yevamos 115a)


  100. dovid segal

    12 September, 2011

    bruce

    The source that you were looking for is in Bechorot 36a, however the source above describes better the message you are trying to relay.

  101. I read one post and cannot read on. It is sickening to say the very least. Now I know why Halacha so clearly states Lashon Harah, both false AND true are forbidden. Why? Because the truth destroys people’s reputations just as falsehood does. If not to an even greater extent.

    What an abomination, that you spend your valuable time on such idiocy – on revealing peoples weaknesses and failings. What has been written above should be repeated again.
    The fact that you hide behind an anonymous curtain goes to show that you cannot be proud of what your write – and do not have the strength to stand up for the disgusting things you publish in a public forum.

    THIS is what divides us. I was shocked, having lived in Melbourne my entire life, that such a site would exist. May our enemies never find this. May those Jews that have lost faith in the Jewish community never find this. Such ammunition should never be allowed.

    You clearly never learned the value of putting your energies where you can do good.
    You said it yourself – nothing good has come from revealing these twisted trashy “reports”.

    If I could, I would find a way to have this taken down. I for one, am not interested in investing my time reading up on Lashon Harah. Nothing at all good will ever come from this.

    I don’t have to have an affiliation with any Jewish group to say that this is absolutely sickening. You have so much positive potential – do something with it!


  102. dovid segal

    12 September, 2011

    “The fact that you hide behind an anonymous curtain goes to show that you cannot be proud of what your write”.

    Is “Unknown” your private name or your surname?

  103. Unknown, probably the best place to make your comment about lashon hara right now is here:
    http://galusaustralis.com/2011/09/5086/the-first-arrest-a-grassroots-movement-to-protect-our-children/#comments

  104. Fortunately the Cyprys case will not be decided on this or any other blog. We will all have to wait for the prosecution to present their case in December and see what transpires.

    No doubt whatever the final outcome and decision by the court it will be debated hotly in the blogs by people who will be much more knowlegable and informed than the judge (sarcasm intended).

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